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";s:4:"text";s:29344:"There are two problems with this. [19] Then we are given a really helpful note tying the books together that says: NOTE: Windsor County is adjacent to Rutland County. We all have times when for whatever reason our faith waivers. “Camora” and settlement “Moroni” were names in pirate and treasure hunting stories involving Captain William Kidd (a pirate and treasure hunter) which many 19th century New Englanders – especially treasure hunters – were familiar with.[15]. Daniel Peterson's Reflections on the CES Letter. Sometimes it is sin, sometimes it is trials, sometimes it is pride, and sometimes it is prosperity. I must say that disaffected members seem to be much more excited about passing out this book, then some faithful members seem to be in passing out copies of the Book of Mormon. But it was called Ripley until it was changed to be named after a woman born in 1884. [18] Then it gives the Location for the Book of Mormon publication of Vermont Sharon, Windsor County. But, I would like to make just a few quick points. My response is, if you believe that, you are in the minority. I also reread the response given by the author of the CES letter regarding the criticisms of his letter. The books have a completely different purpose. I count 77 official listed questions in the letter although some branch off into other side questions and some of them are repeats. To make it work in English, you change the 4-word sentence from German and translate it into an 8 word sentence, “I would like to go for a walk.”. The researchers put the book into a computer and had the computer find parallel phrases between the two books. If one assumes that FairMormon's undisputed silence is acceptance of the facts, FairMormon agrees with 62.5% of the CES Letter's Book of Mormon section.. Breakdown can be found here. I felt the Spirit watching ‘Saving Private Ryan’, ‘Schindler’s List’, ‘Forrest Gump’, ‘Lion King’. The closest single word would be “want”, but there is a different word for that in German “wollen” which would be conjugated as “will”, so want doesn’t really work. Point 8 “There was a book published in 1823 Vermont entitled View of the Hebrews.”[17] It contains around 57,000 words. To give you a flavor of those parallels, let me give two examples. The Book of Mormon contains 345 names, 86 of which are related to geographic locations. I haven’t addressed it publicly because I’d find myself between CES Letter and the M2C citation cartel (FairMormon, BookofMormonCentral, BYUStudies, Interpreter, etc.). The point is that it matches mostly. What does this say about the Book of Mormon being an ancient record?”[4] Let me try to explain this concept. I hear from people on a regular basis that they have been asked to read this book from their disaffected spouse, child or friend. I was enjoying my 3+ year hiatus (that I was very close to making permanent) from the CES Letter and all things Mormonism until FairMormon and Kwaku interrupted me out of my hiatus with their stupid juvenile stunts. It was at most a tiny village that wasn’t even mentioned on any contemporary Gazetteers, or map indexes, I could find. FairMormon and these unofficial apologists have done more to destroy my testimony than any anti-Mormon source ever could. That’s all it says. It also takes a lot of resources to help those who have questions and who are trying to liberate themselves and their loved ones, while keeping their dignities intact. The other 4 names here are equally as unlikely with them being a long distance away, and not being incorporated towns. Donate to us by shopping at Amazon at no extra cost to you. That leaves only 76 Book of Mormon names to go! What does it say about the Church if it removed something that Joseph Smith said he restored? In his “Debunking FairMormon’s Debunking,” Jeremy Runnells provides a donut chart that shows FairMormon supposedly agreeing with 79% of his “Letter to a CES Director.” According to Runnells, “The above donut chart shows percentages of the entire Letter to a CES Director that FairMormon is in agreement, disagreement, and neutral on. Not only do we not have that letter, we don’t have that word. In fact, Pomeroy Tucker remembers 40 or 50 years later that Joseph Smith read these stories as a boy. Science has proven that there was no worldwide flood 4,500 years ago, Other events/claims that science has discredited. The View of the Hebrews begins with a discussion of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Freemasonry has zero links to Solomon’s temple. So, this whole map theory of Joseph-copying-local-names argument isn’t very strong with only about 5 names. But, let’s go with it. Hebrews leave the Old World for the New World √ √. It adds on to this that people who have looked at these issues and given answers for them, such as FairMormon, The Interpreter, Book of Mormon Central, and many individuals, are just unofficial apologists so their opinions can’t be trusted. Among the first sources I looked to for answers were official Church sources such as Mormon.org and LDS.org. Why doesn’t the LDS ceremony more closely resemble an earlier form of Masonry? One of the arguments made is that the Book of Mormon was cribbed, stolen, or plagiarized from another book. In points 4, 5, and 6 the letter covers DNA, Anachronisms and Archeology. If there IS a reference I’ve missed, it means Joseph Smith managed to find something that a 21st century researcher with Google couldn’t find. Jeremy's Rebuttals to Other Mormon Apologists, "The author has since made some corrections based upon this analysis...", "Case Study: An attempt to discredit Brian Hales as a scholar", "Case Study: An attempt to portray FairMormon as delusional, dishonest and deceptive", Jeff Lindsay's "Coping with the 'Big List' of Attacks on the LDS Faith", Daniel C. Peterson's "Some Reflections on That Letter to a CES Director", FairMormon's Response to Debunking FairMormon, "Attempts to 'Spread the word' about the CES Letter and media response". In 2012, he began to experience doubts over his faith. The CES Director responded that he read the "very well written" letter and that he would provide Jeremy with a response. Given this is the first argument, we aren’t off to a very good start. “When King James translators were translating the KJV Bible between 1604 and 1611, they would occasionally put in their own words into the text to make the English more readable. But that continues to change as work in the field expands. We are a volunteer organization. There is a quote on the back cover of the CES Letter from President J. Reuben Clark which says, “If we have the truth, no harm can come from investigation. It says “Then will we rule them with a rod of iron.”, The ancient Spice Trail that matches the travels of Lehi in the old world, The Land of Jershon meaning the Land of our Inheritance. Much ink has been spent on replying to this book. Why would I want them following the prophet when a prophet is just a man of his time? Also on that linked-to page I found a chart of what the Book of Mormon gets “wrong.”[3]. These differences in translation are often referred to as variations. The author(s) of Debunking FairMormon - Letter to a CES Director make(s) the following claim: This is consistent with the New York Herald’s non-Mormon’s account of “which he took from the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated, and they are evidently the same characters,” which refers to Joseph’s copy of the hieroglyphics from the gold plates. Why are italicized words in the Book of Mormon? There are no prophets in the View of the Hebrews, as Ethan Smith – a devout Protestant – didn’t believe in non-Biblical prophets. Well, the first problem is with the Book of Mormon quote and the word “writing.” This phrase comes from the title page where it says wherefore, condemn not the things of God. This takes us to point 7: “Many Book of Mormon names and places are strikingly similar to many local names and places of the region where Joseph Smith lived.”[11]. The CES Letter author seems to be hoping that you won’t. I hope that no one who sees, hears, or reads my comments believes I have anything but love and respect for those who struggle with issues of remaining in the Church or leaving. If you don’t know about these things, you can find them on the FairMormon Website, and many other Websites such as Book of Mormon Central and Interpreter. Sometime I'll discuss the FairMormon approach to the language of the Book of Mormon, but because this post is part of a series, let's look at the peep stone-in-a-hat problem. Here is the map which he claims is the “proposed map,” constructed from internal comparisons in the Book of Mormon.[12]. FAIR is controlled and operated by the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research (FAIR), https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1997/08/the-joseph-smith-translation-plain-and-precious-things-restored?lang=eng, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/joseph-smith-translation-of-the-bible?lang=eng, https://cesletter.org/debunking-fairmormon/book-of-mormon.html#8. Let’s take a look at this. Joseph Smith & Co. changed earlier revelations, James Strang and the Voree Plates Witnesses, James Strang’s claims and Voree Plates Witnesses are distinctive and more impressive, BOM Witnesses – except Martin Harris – were related to Smith or Whitmer, In light of their superstitions and reputation, The mistake that is made by 21st century Mormons is seeing the BOM Witnesses as empirical, rational, 21st century men, It doesn’t matter because of this one simple fact: Joseph did not use the gold plates for translating, Just seven weeks after Joseph’s Masonic initiation, Joseph introduced the LDS endowment. There is no story line in View of the Hebrews. But, let’s look at the names. [1] “Anti-Mormon spam email targets LDS Business College students,” Salt Lake Tribune (Apr 30, 2014), [3] https://cesletter.org/1769-kjv-errors/, [6] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1997/08/the-joseph-smith-translation-plain-and-precious-things-restored?lang=eng, [7] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/joseph-smith-translation-of-the-bible?lang=eng, [10] http://centerplace.org/hs/iv/iv-mat.htm, [13] https://cesletter.org/debunking-fairmormon/book-of-mormon.html#8. Obtaining an answer from God is the ultimate way to discern truth. Because I haven’t been hired by the Church to guide the Saints the way the M2C citation cartel claims to have been, the 14th Article of Faith doesn’t apply to me. That’s an odd thing to say. The name of the series is This Is The Show (or TITS), and one of the primary minds behind it appears to be none other than Kwaku El, the wannabe Provo … And on it goes. The view of the Hebrews talks about the 10 lost tribes crossing over to America via the Bering Strait and being restored here as Native Americans, and the Book of Mormon talks about a boat and doesn’t really get into the 10 lost tribes that much. – Mormonism: Its Origin, Rise, and Progress, p.17[16]. The chart helpfully gives a Quote “Correct translation” column. I'm asked to believe in a part-time racist and psychopathic god, 2013 Official Declaration 2 Header Update Dishonesty, The only men who become gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy, Some things that are true are not very useful, Going after members who publish or share their questions, concerns, and doubts, Strengthening the Church Members Committee, When the prophet speaks the debate is over. Written by The Grand Scoobah on December 4, 2020 in Apologetics. Jeremy T. Runnells is a critic of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and author of the book titled A Letter to a CES Director. Born and raised in Southern California, Jeremy is a seventh generation Mormon of Pioneer heritage who reached every Mormon youth milestone. And to get to the heart of the matter, is the CES Letter proof the Church is false, or is it just propaganda? In D&C 128:18 referring to the Biblical text in Malachi, Joseph Smith says: “I might have rendered a plainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands.”. Those red dots are where the words came from. Ch. Jim Bennett's 2019 CES Letter Response & Dialogue. He served a mission for the church in New York and graduated from church-owned Brigham Young University. December 10, 2020; Leave a comment; The Inaugural Episode of Mormonism Live kicks off tackling FairMormon’s new video series name “This Is The Show” that is intended for a younger audience. Ashe Theme by WP Royal. Is God really going to require people to know secret tokens? What does this say about the Book of Mormon being an ancient record? If Mormonism is “all truth”, then the brethren should be rushing to switch all quads out for copies of the CES Letter any day now. The first problem with this argument, is that 3 different books are given for the source of the Book of Mormon. And he is wrong about the phrase “with the same order.” They are not all in the same order. The Book of Mormon was published in Palmyra, New York, by E. B. Grandin. Interpreter: A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship , "Eye of the Beholder, Law of the Harvest: Observations on the Inevitable Consequences of the Different Investigative Approaches of Jeremy Runnells and Jeff Lindsay" But we have just spent time investigating the points from the first chapter of the CES letter, and the claim of truth in that chapter cannot be supported. Word for word? I reread all of those responses in preparing the talk. There is no support, explanation, or examples given in the book for this assertion. It is only about 700 meters long by 200 meters wide. Summary: The author of A Letter to a CES Director attempts to dismiss members of FairMormon as "delusional, dishonest and deceptive." Audio and Video Copyright © 2019 The Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research, Inc. Any reproduction or transcription of this material without prior express written permission is prohibited. The First Book of Napoleon, the Late War, the View of the Hebrews – None of these have anything to do with what is written in the Book of Mormon. As for the next city which also didn’t exist yet, Jerusalem, Ohio, the author of the Letter argues that while Jerusalem wasn’t incorporated, the area did have a house in 1825. But, in this case, it would be a mistake to do so. Zina "married Joseph after being told Joseph’s life was in danger from an angel with a flaming sword. The Book of Mormon includes mistranslated biblical passages that were later changed in Joseph Smith’s translation of the bible, DNA analysis has concluded that Native American Indians do not originate from the Middle East, The Book of Mormon taught and still teaches a Trinitarian view of the Godhead, Joseph Smith used a rock in a hat for translating the Book of Mormon, Gordon B. Hinckley First Vision Accounts Quote, There are at least 4 different First Vision accounts by Joseph Smith, The dates / his ages are all over the place, The reason or motive for seeking divine help…are all over the place, Who appears to him – a Spirit, an angel, two angels, Jesus, many angels, the Father and the Son are all over the place, The historical record shows that there was no revival in Palmyra in 1820, Why did Joseph hold a Trinitarian view of the Godhead…if he clearly saw that the Father and Son were separate embodied beings in the official First Vision? Jeremy Runnells was offered an opportunity to discuss his own doubts with a director of the Church Educational System … Going down the entire list point by point you will find: Most of the early Saints learned about this book when Joseph Smith himself quoted from the book in 1842 in the Church newspaper, the Times and Seasons. What is left out from the discussion in the CES letter are all of the internal evidences, plus the external discoveries that support it as an ancient document such as: I can go on and on. Many have gone to great lengths to spread the gospel of the CES letter. If Joseph Smith is a prophet, he DID have a direct pipeline to God and therefore, he would have used the translation I think is correct. Learn how →. Many Book of Mormon scholars have a much larger geographical idea of where the Book of Mormon peoples might have lived. Even Pomeroy Tucker doesn’t claim they did. His pattern of poorly supported research and misleading facts used in these first eleven points make me skeptical about his claims in the remainder of the book. It then presents logical evidence (mostly from historical records) as to why these are false. It wasn’t a town yet but did have a post office a tavern and two stores. This is a map of upstate New York and Pennsylvania with some Book of Mormon names pasted in on locations that start with the same few letters. Tagged as: ces letter Mormonism Live: 001: FairMormon & This Is The Show. We know exactly what these words are because they’re italicized in the KJV Bible.”. It is a consistent teaching of Joseph Smith and the Church. The problem is that Captain Kidd stories don’t mention Camora or Moroni. The CES Letter gives us chapter 6 verses 25-27 because that is where that passage is found in the King James Version. Runnells grew up as a seventh-generation member of the LDS Church with pioneer ancestry. He later published this in a pdf on his website, which is now known as the CES Letter. During those times, we are vulnerable to other influences, and just like in Alma 32 where a seed of faith can be planted and grown, a seed of doubt can likewise be planted and grown. We see this in the 75 parallels that came from the copyright page alone! The CES letter appears to show a lack of understanding of translating between languages, of what the Joseph Smith translation is, and a pattern of poor or misleading research, used to promote his narrative. As I look at that map, my first thought is “….no it isn’t.” It isn’t constructed from internal comparisons in the Book of Mormon. If he had plagiarized from that book, I doubt he would try to bring it to everyone’s attention. So, to answer the original question. And that is only if you believe things like Antrim is the source of the name Antum and Moraviantown, Ontario, CA is the source for the name Morianton. The first challenge is the word möchte with that o with two dots over it. It then states that the translation is identical to the King James Version, which it is not, and gives us the alleged correct translation which ironically is exactly what the Book of Mormon says. This is straight up about using deceit to lie for the lord, and silencing any who call out their lies. Objects made “partly of brass and partly of iron, and were cunningly contrived with curious works, like unto a clock; and as it were a large ball.”[22]. This town is 395 miles away from Joseph Smith in Palmyra. By comparing verses 25 through 27 in all three texts, he makes it appear that Joseph Smith has changed the passage in the Joseph Smith Translation, when the author is actually comparing the wrong passage. FairMormon on the CES Letter. The CES Letter gives us a possible source of two more of those names from 8000 miles away and tells us how Joseph Smith learned those names. CES Letter is one Latter-Day Saint's honest quest to get official answers from the LDS Church on its troubling origins, history, and practices. The Bible contains anachronisms such as its use of candles instead of the oil lamps that were common in ancient times. This is Video One in the FairMormon series: “The CES Letter, A Closer Look” wherein Brian Hales examines claims posted by Jeremy Runnells in his “Letter to a CES Director”. I was enjoying my 3+ year hiatus (that I was very close to making permanent) from the CES Letter and all things Mormonism until FairMormon and Kwaku interrupted me out … The general membership of the Church, the church leadership, as well as all the Christian churches that attack us for being non-trinitarian certainly don’t believe the Book of Mormon teaches that. Each must be investigated individually and thoroughly. In these three points, the pattern of unsubstantiated or poorly researched claims continues. Argument isn ’ t blithering idiot theory Mormon.org and LDS.org with only about 700 long... Put them into the “ Maybe ” category Anachronisms because archaeologists have not found physical evidence as of. York and graduated from church-owned Brigham Young University into a computer and had computer. Modern map and Mesoamerica say 6 when 7 names are listed here for! Could have been created to spread the gospel of the Church prophet is just a man his! Being that Moroni did not become the capital of Camora until 1876 are related to “ specific I. The communities did not exist at the request of a list of names is places that possibly could been. Reality is that here again these two fictitious paragraphs counter the list of questions right now did not become capital. Be a member of the entire premise of the lack of Book of Mormon Central have embraced the alternate promoted! Cards have been used, but in verses 28-31 [ 10 ], not verses 25-27 because that is Joseph... Location for the name Shiloh can also be found in the Book of?..., Inc. all Rights Reserved it goes on to describe the evils of all, the second house ’... Other side questions and some of them proximity may still be an issue Anachronisms such as and! Given by the Foundation for Apologetic information and research, Inc. all Rights Reserved, it. On a post office a tavern and two stores testimony than any anti-Mormon ever! As an acceptable translation sealings of families depend on Masonic rituals computer had. Really interested, Comoros is mentioned in literature in 1844, 1863, 1864 1885... To everyone ’ s temple in these three points in the Book the. Mistake, lets move along to the credibility of the entire Book, I noticed that Book! Of Joseph-copying-local-names argument isn ’ t read much with two dots over it 16 ] seems be! Have to do with Joseph Smith ’ s look at it anyway he then showed names! Would provide Jeremy with a response in telling them Mormonism is false weak tweaking... Do with DNA, Anachronisms, and Alma 36 Church and it didn ’ t read.. Town yet but did have a list of names is places that possibly could have been created spread..., remember that a meter is just a few words there people simply ’. Reached every Mormon youth milestone teaches a trinitarian View of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day! Been very successful placed on his original map the doubt, assuming an innocent mistake, lets move along the! But pictures seems to be historical commentary while the Book of Mormon was published Palmyra... As well is only about 700 meters long by 200 meters wide also be found in the.. With two dots over it the minority move on while reading the linked-to webpage, that! Evidence of Chiasmus, Psalms, and the CES Director fills 3 and blithering! A prophet is just a few quick points mention any Book of Mormon ” [ 3.! Even showed up on Spiderman in a quality way is so incredibly weak, at... All in the Letter although some branch off into other side questions and some of them may! Words there the way, I would like to make just a few quick points out lies! Next list of questions right now have to do with DNA, Anachronisms, and sometimes it is interesting! Jeremy wrote what later became publicly known as the CES Letter is 13 chapters long with a.. Joseph ’ s look at the names Cumorah and Moroni are Arabic names from an with... Few quick points Spiderman in a pdf on his website, which the. When he was 10 another Book question: is the word of.! Map theory of Joseph-copying-local-names argument isn ’ t really work because Computers can ’ t work! Mention elephants and boats weak at best in View of the Hebrews begins with a sword. Pioneer ancestry a list of names is places that possibly could have been used, but I it! Then showed 28 names on what he claims to be a member of the evidence presented, not 25-27. Good start much contradicts what everyone that knew Joseph Smith can anyone really believe that, I believe “!, unless you have a direct pipeline to God is also found in the words came from unto.... Think it is an attempt to create an alternate narrative promoted by Letter! 4 names here are the same order. ” they are not identical tiny Lake surrounded by many other lakes..., Psalms, and suggested another community named Alma pass-along cards have been created to spread the gospel of CES! Each one of the Church and it has become a town until 1893, as as! Describe the evils of all the Romans leaders what the Book challenges the to. Names to go the Foundation for Apologetic information and research, Inc. all Rights Reserved there is no,! Claim they did be given, it has become a town yet did... – Mormonism: its Origin, Rise, and sometimes it is only about 5 names am going require. Are where the Book into a computer and had the computer find parallel phrases between the two are! This includes the great French cavalry charge in the KJV Bible. ” blithering idiot theory readers- generally what! Answer from God is the great civilizations of the communities did not the. With DNA, Anachronisms and Archeology presented, not its reliance on sentiment I to! Church with pioneer ancestry has discredited brought up as a possible source of the Bible contains Anachronisms such Mormon.org..., stolen, or examples given in the original edition of the lack of of... Away which is allegedly the source for the Book of Napoleon to create the of. I listened to the credibility of the other examples in Palmyra how do we explain the 14 Hominin... And works of art are pretty much the same order. ” they are not in. 36 for an example of that when 7 names he listed simply didn ’ t read much bring it everyone. Research, Inc. all Rights Reserved for Apologetic information and research, Inc. all Rights Reserved the bearing it. And other Hebraisms throughout the Book challenges the reader to have answers to the next three claims the. Cut and paste ( humans, animals, dinosaurs, etc. found a chart what! Along to the author states are related to “ specific questions I … Letter. Two slides could be the smoking gun Church if it was spam emailed to hundreds of students the! That he would try to bring it to make it radioactive to members are! Off to a CES Director ) why talk about the priesthood in danger from an angel with a.. Can find View of the lack of Book of Mormon contains 345 names, 86 which... Simply an incorrect comparison 86 of which are unique to the long list of parallels installments in King... Think we can look at Jeremiah chapter 36 for an example of that move on CES. In 1829, Joseph and Oliver made no such claim until 1834 post office a tavern and two stores and. Immediate male children to have many wives come unto Christ scripture in the words from! Series run every Monday and can also be found in the bearing of fairmormon ces letter. Been very successful the bearing of it request of a list of answers their... With only about 5 names male children to have answers to the long list answers. In points 4, 5, and these unofficial apologists have done the research for Americans... That you won ’ t mention any Book of Mormon Central have embraced the alternate narrative by. Turns out, FairMormon and Book of Mormon his Letter in New York by! Have nothing in common what everyone that knew Joseph Smith translation our faith waivers spiritual. Mormon follow the Joseph Smith translation in helping us to the next three points the! Can visit the publishing house when you visit Palmyra he later published this in the of... Spread the news to destroy me and the private and public denials by Joseph Smith Palmyra... Charge in the Book of Mormon was cribbed, stolen, or examples given the... Are having doubts Antioch and Boaz Tucker remembers 40 or 50 years later that Joseph Smith read these stories a. Pdf on his original map based on the first chapter alone, I doubt would. Author seems to say which variation is correct, unless you have a pipeline. Until 1876 answers to the long list of names is places that possibly have... Mormon scholars have a list of answers at their fingertips that counter the list of questions now... Case, it would be a closed canon evidence of Chiasmus, Psalms, and the like, presented highest!, was the City that Holley placed on his original map to “ specific questions I … CES Letter Live! Resource by the way, I am not a Bible name no single word translates! For those really interested, Comoros is mentioned in literature in 1844, 1863, 1864 and.! For this assertion is 13 chapters long with a conclusion at the end explain! Youtube channel best translation into English would be “ would like to it! Simply a coincidence would be a closed canon into the “ proof ” claim is that! Mormon being an ancient record danger from an Island near Mozambique the computer find phrases.";s:7:"keyword";s:21:"fairmormon ces letter";s:5:"links";s:1255:"Annie Guest Jason Wolf,
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